Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    Another day another car crash. Cant remember who said it. But if this was a boxset like house of cards this would be fascinating gripping tv drama. Unfortunately this is in our country. How can you delay a vote because you know you will be defeated. Anyone would think that she trying to stay as prime minister so she doesn't have to move house over Christmas

    I think a 2nd vote is needed because something werent even thought about never mind discussed. I cant remember once either side discussing that leaving the uk. Meaning highly likely to revoke the good Friday agreement. Potentially pushing Ireland in chaos. That i feel its starting to look like brexit is logistically impossible because not only for 1st time since world war 2 that house of commons are voting that will guarantee the country will be worse off. Then current situation uk leaves the eu. Scotland will leave uk & northern ireland could leave to get open border back

    Can we have dallas Shower scene & pretend that none of this happened
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  3. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    I don't buy this argument that we didn't know what we were voting for the first time around. I feel that's a lazy response pitching the blame on the politicians instead of the voters.

    "What? You mean the words on the side of Boris's bus were wrong? Well if only I'd known"

    "Hang on a second... You mean UKIP's jingoistic statements about hoards of Turks poised to flock to Britain the minute we vote remain were incorrect? Well why didn't Vote Remain say so?"

    It reminds me of the run up to the Scottish independence vote a few years ago. The ironic thing is that the Vote No campaign said that if Scotland were to become an independent country then there was a real risk of a boarder between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Oh no said Vote Yes. That's project fear. There would be no risk of a hard boarder.

    How ironic then that the bulk of the people in the Vote No campaign on Scottish independence, who threatened a hard boarder with Scotland, are the same ones in the Tory party who conveniently forgot about the Irish boarder after Brexit.

    I firmly believe all the facts were there if you looked hard enough during the referendum. Like any political campaign there will always be truths, half truths and lies. The fact that we can not see through them is not the fault of the politicians but ourselves.

    Even if we have another referendum, sorry I mean People's Vote, there will still be the same campaigns, made by the same people telling the same stories.
    Andyoak likes this.
  4. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    The people's vote would just dividw the country more. If it reversed the decision it would still prob be 51% verses 49% and all hell would kick off again only worse.

    I'm afraid there is no way out. None. We havw all (leavers and remainers) completely ****ed our country for at least ten years. The sooner we all take that on the chin and pull together to get out of it the better it would be - I'm talking to you Tory party.

    As for people not knowing what they voted for - I know a good deal of leave voters who knew we'd be screwed in short term but think the EU will collapse in on itself so we're better taking short term pain so we don't go with them. I think we remainers arrogantly suggesting leavers didn't understand what they were voting for is causing the biggest divide in society right now.
    cider_and_toast likes this.
  5. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    I'm a remainer, I voted to remain. I don't see how I have "completely ****ed our country for at least ten years". Can you please explain why you think otherwise?

    It's going to be shit.
    F1Brits_90 likes this.
  6. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Irrespective of how we voted it was always going to be the decision of parliament to vote finally to leave, this was glassed over with statements "the referendum was the peoples wish and no MP would vote against it". They are about to, but as usual with the standard politician slant of "no we are not voting to remain, we are voting because the deal is wrong," all deals will be wrong to those wishing to remain which is the majority of MPs, May has a deal to leave but it won't be accepted neither will her next deal if she gets a newish deal, we won't leave because parliament won't vote to leave, there won't be another referendum because if it's the same, the same problem will occur in parliament.
    Perhaps the referendum should be on May's deal but I believe even if the country came out in favour parliament still wouldn't accept it, the only democratic fact about the UK parliamentary system is the vote for your MP, once in they please themselves not your wishes.
    With any referendum of this kind the rule should be over 50% of the franchised population must vote for a change, had this been the case then we wouldn't be in this position, the remainers could have not bothered to vote along with the don't cares and the country could have continued bumping along with a better exchange rate:teary:
  7. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Well maybe not you specifically but Remainers attitude towards people voting leave both before and after the vote was so derogatory that it just encamped them all in a bitter uncompromising position which has left politicians seeking votes from their constituencies with no room to manoeuvre whatsoever. 95% of leave voters are not thick or racists so being labelled as such for having a valid opinion is only going to make you cling to your view more.

    The problem is people don't realise what they are doing. I have a friend who prides herself on being a strong campaigning socialist, feminist and civil right activist. She is very quick to point out anyone's perceived prejudice on social media. Two days after the vote she was posting 'funny' stuff on FB about how as old people have voted leave we should no longer help them with anything and push them into the road. She failed to see why this contradicts everything else she claims to stand for.
    Dartman likes this.
  8. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    More wise words from Mr Pie (recorded before the vote delay).

    Titch likes this.
  9. Titch

    Titch Champion Elect Premium Contributor

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    I voted remain. But I will be the first to admit that neither the remain team or the leave team were good on facts. One of the reasons I did vote remain was because I knew what I was dealing with, I didn’t like it all, and I hated the closer political integration being forced on us by the unelected Mr. Junker, whom I hate. But I do believe in the Common Market and free movement of Europeans around Europe. The leavers still don’t have a real idea of what happens to us once we’re out, and that scares me. But I believe in Democracy and the majority voted out, so out it is. I just wish that the last two years had been spent planning for out, and not appeasing Europe. It’s become very apparent that the majority of Europe can’t stand us anyway.
  10. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    I feel slightly sick ageeing with Norman Lamont but he was right in saying that May went into the negotiations trying to appease both parties... But that is the inevitable result of such a close referendum IF you believe in government for the people.

    However, if the referendum was brought in because parlaiment couldn't decide and act for the people then it should have been a cross party negotiation.

    The problem now is national politics is taking precedence over national interest.

    I'm convinced that the Tories chose to negotiate alone for selfish gain.

    And I'm convinced that all opposition is objecting for selfish gain.

    (I certainly haven't seen any viable alternative)

    Nobody is working for the national gain.

    For once we probably need the Queen to step in and bang some heads (or chop them off).
    cider_and_toast and Titch like this.
  11. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    There were alot of both things on both sides were badly both sides were bothered about point scoring that fact. But problem is that i think neither result was going well. Because EU last few months have some dodgy ideas so we couldve been just as bad in as well as out. But how much of leaves promises have actually been proved to be realistic. As it just seems like 1 lie after another & the biggest problem was during campaign 52% of voters thought politicians were genius negotiaters & tacticians. Instead of useless lot for generations past & present

    But thesrsa may has to stay as tweet below proves. She goes its almost worse
  12. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    The Titanic. Just after midnight, April 15th 1912.

    Captain Smith: "Gentleman, I've seen the damage and talked to the engineers, the sad truth is that she is going to sink. We now need to work together to ensure as many people survive as possible. Here's the emergency plan"

    Officer 1: "but sir, this isn't a survival plan, this is just an agreement that we won't panic while we spend the next two hours discussing the real survival plan"

    Officer 2: "I resign"

    Officer 3: "I have no confidence in the Captain I move we spend the next four hours discussing who should be Captain. I won't be putting myself forward for the job"

    Officer 3: "Maybe we should move those deckchairs around a bit. Let's do something so we don't scare the passengers?"
    Officer 4: "Why don't we ask the passengers what they want us to do?"

    Officer 5: "Has any one else got wet feet?"

    Passengers: "Just ****ing get on with it!!!"
  13. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    This amused me today.

    Here's a list of the official positions of the parties during the 1975 EU Referendum campaign:


    Liberal Party

    No official position:

    Labour Party


    Scottish National Party
    Plaid Cymru
    Democratic Unionist Party.

    How times change.
    Andyoak likes this.
  14. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Jeremy Corbyn's position : Leave

    Applys for then and now.
    cider_and_toast and Andyoak like this.
  15. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    Agreed based on past voting records and speeches.
    However, I suspect JC's position these days is whatever will get him into power.

    As for the Conservatives...
    I suspect the majority would like to stay in the EU but the leavers are very noisy and have the ears of the press.
  16. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    The Labour party conference voted to keep all options open including that of a second referendum. Corbyn has to follow this policy, he could obviously resign if the party insist that they will go for staying in Europe but then he is a politician so will not.

    Labour votes to keep referendum option

    "Labour delegates have approved a motion that would keep all options - including a fresh referendum - on the table if MPs are deadlocked over Brexit."
  17. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    I am still seeing people who want Brexit to get control of our immigration despite the fact that we already have it through not having signed up to the Schengen treaty. I also know people who think that if Brexit goes ahead we will be able to return all immigrants to their home country.

    The mind boggles.
  18. Greenlantern101

    Greenlantern101 Super Hero And All Round Good Guy Contributor

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    This is like a really shitty film. Just when you think the plot can't get any more ridiculous it does.

    If May looses the confidence vote today it's basically a vote for a no deal BREXIT.

    I guess we will know how ****ed we are by 10pm or so.
    F1Brits_90 likes this.
  19. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    I've actually be stocking up on none prescription drugs and various other items in prep for March for about 3 months now. I'm usually the sort of person who scoffs at panic buying but this time I just know prices are going to shoot up.
  20. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    Which is ironic considering one of the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies is GlaxoSmithKline which is British.
  21. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    NHS have already been told to stockpile and only issue when needed (!?) so government knows it's coming.

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