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Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. mjo

    mjo Procrastinating Contributor

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    A vote was held in the House of Commons earlier calling for a referendum on staying, leaving or renegotiating terms with the EU. It was defeated by 483-111. Many MP's were saying that this is not the right time for a referendum, with the economic climate and all that. I think what really needs to be done is a thorough costs vs. benefits survey of the EU, with a view to a referendum. But of course the government won't have any of it.
     
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  3. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    A disappointing result, but not unexpected.

    I loathe the whip system and despise MPs who don't vote the way their constituents want them to.
    Isn't that who they are supposed to be representing?
     
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  4. mjo

    mjo Procrastinating Contributor

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    Exactly. By telling their own MP's not to vote for the motion, the main political parties are basically admitting that, if there was a referendum now, the British people would vote to leave the EU, and they are suppressing the chance for the British people to have a say on something which will fundamentally affect them.
     
  5. Galahad

    Galahad Not a Moderator Valued Member

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    All the polls suggest the British public couldn't care less about the EU. Certainly I don't think it's the concern of losing a referendum that mainly troubles the party leaders: its their own parties' internal divisions that they'd prefer not to be given daylight.
     
  6. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    Agreed.

    I'm surprised there's any space left in the cabinet room with the EU-sized elephant in there.
     
  7. Road of Bones

    Road of Bones MTC Mole Premium Contributor

    So how exactly would the UK suddenly deciding to quit the EU help? Will there be swathes of new jobs created? Will the pound in our pockets suddenly increase in value? Will fuel be any cheaper?

    What would be the criteria for "renegotiating our terms with the EU" anyway? It seems like the UK currently has the better deal than the full members anyway, as we still have a large degree of autonomy to run our own affairs.

    Working as I do for one of the last bastions of UK manufacturing, who exports nearly all of our output into Europe and points further afield, it makes no sense at all for us to suddenly withdraw from the EU - we suffer due to being undercut by the Germans on price as it is, and have to remain competitive by offering much shorter leadtimes: if we left the EU, we would lose a lot of our ability to fulfil those leadtimes by import tarrifs and delays in shipping material beyond our borders.

    If the Eurozone fails, it fails - whether or not the UK is linked to it is neither here nor there, as the fallout will affect the entire global economy.
     
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  8. mjo

    mjo Procrastinating Contributor

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    There should be a thorough, independent, cost vs benefit report on membership of the EU.
     
  9. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    Having watched the UK public voting on various TV programmes, I think it would be best to mothball a referendum for a bit - not saying that the average Brit is stupid but some are short on the 'considered opinion' and the desire to take on board all that is involved.

    If we can't have a referendum (I voted against joining up in the '70s), then could we at least look at various bits of legislation that hampers our judiciary?
     
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  10. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Everything in moderation Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    That's the crux of the problem. The EU should be about nothing more than a free trade area where there are no trade tariffs and equal trade opportunities for one and all. Since when does a common market idea like that become the total beuracratic nightmare that is the present EU?

    What makes it all so much worse is that the last time the British public had any say in the whole shambles was back in 1975 when the Common Market was sold as nothing more than a free trade area. The so called "tidying up" exercises in the Maastricht, Amsterdam and Lisbon treaties are far beyond anything that was ever agreed to in 1975 and yet we have had no chance what so ever to have a say in it.

    Voting in a general election for any of the main parties when it comes to their EU policy is a total waste of time because they all seem quite happy to drift further down the river and not one of them wants to let the British people know what's going on just in case, like so many other EU countries we don't vote as they would wish. Quite why so many politicians want to get closer to Europe and in doing so reduce their own powers and responsibilities is a mystery to me anyway.

    Furthermore, Scandanavia exists as living proof that you don't have to obey every single daft rule and still not have an economy that freezes up at the first opportunity.
     
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  11. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    Almost a year since this thread was posted on, but the subject has come up again after Cameron hinted there would be a referendum on it.

    I doubt the referendum will actually take place but I would certainly like it to.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19742182
     
  12. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    There's a surprise....not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20465189
     
  13. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    That's what happens when a 'committee' governs - 27 on the committee, most of whom make money for their own enterprise, so going to be a stalemate.
     
  14. The Pits

    The Pits Harumph. Again. Valued Member

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-interactive-money

    Net loss to the British taxpayer?

    I must confess to not understanding all the ins and outs of the benefits of being in Europe, but it seems to me to be a cash cow for those involved, and provides benefits to politicians regards mutually beneficial arrangements.

    Could someone in the know please tell me what the benefit of being in Europe actually is, as opposed to not being in Europe?
     
  15. GeoffP

    GeoffP Thank you and good night Contributor

    Do you realise that if we pull out of Europe they'll give Nigel Farage back ?!?

    It's worth every penny!
     
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  16. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    Don't look into it The Pits. If you're anything like me it will just make your blood boil.

    MEPs just have to sign the book to get their daily allowance and then they're free to do whatever they want.
    They get free first class travel for them and their families, schooling fees paid, etc.

    And then there's the farcical situation of having two headquarters and all the expense there.

    Plus of course every single document has to be in both English and French, which means yet more money wasted on translations and printing :rolleyes:


    Arrrghhh!!!!!


    >:(>:(>:(:givemestrength:
     
  17. GeoffP

    GeoffP Thank you and good night Contributor

    The EU a bureaucracy created by multiple bureaucracies in times of financial stability.

    The main difference to a piss up in a brewery was that a businessman had to build the brewery first...

    The thing that made me think of Farage was HIGNFY where he was a panelist the other day, they were talking about the latest MP criminal behaviour on expenses and in his own defence he said he didn't get expenses, he got allowances to cover all these costs and could spend any way - how he went on a show like that and didn't get ripped to bits I don't know, but to have a load of overpaid tax exiles who don't have to justify their spending to warrant a claim >:( :crazy: :censored: :givemestrength:
     
  18. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    The argument is The Pits that if we weren't in Europe we would still have to conform to all their rules and regulations without having any influence over them. The counter to that is that Norway and Switzerland are members of the European Economic Area but not members of the EU and are (and I'm open to correction here) the two richest countries in Europe. You pays your money and you takes your choice or, in our case, you pays your money 'cos you have no choice.
     
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  19. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    But we had a choice before we joined!
     
  20. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    1975? Don't forget that was to join the European Economic Community not what we now have, effectively a United States of Europe. The UK could pull out of the EU but still be in the EEA.
     
  21. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    If we hadn't joined in the first place, then there wouldn't be a problem. With regards to the EEA, we would be better off in terms of agriculture and fisheries - two UK industries that have all but died.

    I particularly resent the constant interference in a perfectly good (and adaptable) legal system which has caused mayhem in our prison system, ability to eject 'undesirables' and compensation ethos.

    You're right in that what we voted for then is not the beast we face now - if we hadn't joined that monster it not be a bug bear now.
     

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