Team Sizes

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by Ruslan, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Specific question would have yielded most likely a different answer. I am quite certain it is more than 212 as number of activities is impossible to manage with so a few people.

    Big teams (Mercedes, Ferrari) have about 60-100 people in the office. (That includes management.) Haas probably has less, but must have some. (Give them 25.) That does not includes labour such as design, process, etc. count.

    Then track side operations require 40 - 60 personnel, add personnel outside paddock and it adds up 80-100 heads in attendance of race events. There you cannot save so 80 for Haas.

    So, that's 100 people already, and 112 to go..?

    If you itemized activities and allocate some minimum numbers, one will arrive to conclusion that the answer Brundle received was ambiguous, to put it nicely. We do know they get engine, and their sister company does design in Italy, so who knows what that manpower as quoted left out. Car has today over 700,000 components. Keep that in mind.

    Just count departments - Legal, Finances, Marketing, Strategy, Design, Production, Logistics, Materials, Track side operations...etc. and you can forget that 212 number, and Brundle should know better, instead letting such misleading information stand.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  3. rufus_mcdufus

    rufus_mcdufus Champion Elect

    You're right. I doubt the team principle knows anything.
    gethinceri likes this.
  4. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    There is no need to be sarcastic, however we can do some thinking on our own and realize, that he could be telling us the truth, but is he telling is whole truth (which was I think a number we were after). How many people work in the team is not all encompassing question. Which team (at the track side)? This one, or that one in Italy?

    If Brundle was after number of all personnel on global scale who are involved directly or indirectly in F1 project on ongoing and part time basis, I am sure he could have asked a different question. (IMHO anyway.) I should perhaps add, if you personally want to believe that Haas F1 project is supported by 212 heads only, I am certainly not going to stand in your way.

    In my estimate that number 212 as count of all heads is too low to support a team in F1.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  5. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    Ok... So it's 430
    Sauber still building its staff numbers - Frederic Vasseur
    Ruslan likes this.
  6. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    I have never understood what those quoted numbers actually mean as aid in comparative analysis with rival teams, and whether they are even comparable. I shall explain what I mean.

    1. There is front office comprising management, secretaries, and various departments - legal, financial, promotions, PR representation, strategy, materials, travel related logistics, travel personnel department, etc. (25 - 100 personnel) - all teams have something of that kind in place.
    2. Track side is mandated max. number, however drivers, and race materials handling men stay outside of paddock. (total at the race 60 - 80 personnel).

    Some people have double duty and act in different roles at home base and at the track.

    3. Next generation vehicle development engineering group.
    4. Approved design production group. (team, customers) + team representation at customer's facilities (engine, fuel, tires, etc.)
    5. Current race vehicle continuous improvement (development) group.
    6. Trackside engineering, assembly, scrap engineering, data acquisition, racing strategies etc.
    7. Supply base management , materials logistics, evaluation, etc.

    Some teams procuring from external sources more services than others do, and it is hard to know what extend. Haas is an example of a team which purchases engines and chassis, therefore their head count could be slightly different from some other small team. Today we suspect that RBR had access to some data collected at TR, and did not need to invest in duplicating the work.

    Point is, unless we will be privy to itemized breakdown (and I doubt that we would ever get that), it's quite hard to be sure how much those numbers are on common denominator (for sake of comparing apples to apples).

    I we would add secondary and tertiary supply base, I would not be surprised to learn there si another few thousands people involved indirectly in getting the car on the road.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  7. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Second update:

    Mercedes = 1600 (source: Abiteboul)
    Ferrari = 1600 (Abiteboul)
    Red Bull = 1600 (Abiteboul)
    Renault = 1200 (Abiteboul)
    McLaren = 600 + 600 (Izumi, from some guy on the internet)
    Williams = 500 (Izumi, from some guy on the internet)
    Toro Rosso = ?
    Alfa = 430 + 25 vacancies (Vasseur, Dec. 2018)
    Racing Point = 425 (Szafnauer)
    Haas = 212 (Steiner, beginning of 2018)

    + suppliers and contractors

    Note that the guys without an engine program seem to have 600 or less. Engine programs seem to add around 600 people. The Red Bull figure of 1600 I have some doubts over, unless it includes the Honda people.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  8. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    Nah, it'll include the Torro Rosso people :D
    Ruslan likes this.
  9. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    ExtremeNinja is lurking these days and I bet he knows about the size of the Williams team.
    Andyoak likes this.
  10. rufus_mcdufus

    rufus_mcdufus Champion Elect

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  11. Angel

    Angel Pole Sitter Supporter

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    Good on her for admitting she's done things wrong, more people should do that rather than passing the buck. Now of course they need to sort it out again ASAP, if they can that is.
  12. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Is that 620 at the facility.....or 620 counting contractors?

    Still, that is a lot of people working at putting a car at the back of the grid. I am sure it is possible to get to the back of the grid with a lot less people.
  13. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Are team numbers as quoted in here even comparable as acceptable data bank for statistical analysis? I have serious doubts about it. In fact, I rather suspect they are, if anything, misleading, and not in good way at that.

    Teams which operate on common denominator are probably just Ferrari, AMG Mercedes, and Renault. In that group, most integrated is Ferrari. Others have services spreaded accross borders. I am not sure what the other teams are doing. RBR (because of TR) probably shouldn't be compared to McLaren. Haas cannot be compared to Williams due to different strategy how team procures services. B-teams v. stand alone...

    Unless one has access to itemized list by departments (dream on), I would be hesitant to draw any conclusion based on numbers in Ruslan's list.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  14. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Well, we all understand that these are very fuzzy numbers, but I would rather have some data than no data at all.
  15. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    I rather have view that we should not be posting dubious data, however teams sizes is not a life threatening issue, thus it is not worth of heated argument.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
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    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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