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Sebastian Vettel - dangerous?

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by Brogan, May 31, 2010.

  1. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    Am I the only one who thinks Sebastian Vettel is reckless and a danger to other drivers?

    His most recent incident saw him trying to pass his teammate on the left hand side whilst approaching a left hand corner and he quite deliberately steered right into him.

    Mark being Mark held his ground (or more likely had no time to react) which resulted in them both colliding.

    Previously in the race Vettel did exactly the same move towards Lewis Hamilton when Hamilton was trying to pass Vettel on the right, in exactly the same place.
    That time however, Hamilton had the sense to move right to avoid him and in doing so missed his braking point and was unable to complete the pass.

    Earlier in the season we saw Vettel quite deliberately and maliciously push Lewis into the pit boxes in China.
    The footage of this incident is quite clear - despite there being more than enough room for 2 cars to travel down the pit lane side by side, which is how they both started out, Vettel keeps on moving right until Hamilton is completely outside the pit lane and barely avoids running over some wheel guns.

    Last year in Australia we saw Vettel collide with Kubica in Australia when Kubica tried to pass him. In that incident Vettel attempted to drive back to the pits with just 3 wheels on his car.

    A lot is claimed of Vettel, but in my opinion he is a dangerous driver and more than a little bit dirty with the moves he tries to get away with whenever he is overtaking or being overtaken by someone.

    Vettel & Webber footage

    China pit lane footage

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  3. McZiderRed

    McZiderRed Champion Elect Supporter

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    If it was just one incident we're talking about, then I suppose one could say that it's misjudgement. As it is, there are a number of these incidents happening, on a recurring theme...

    It is a common perception, rightly or wrongly, that Vettel is great at leading from the front, but ask him to over-take someone, however, and things come a bit unstuck.

    Therefore, to answer your question, I suppose I'd have to say yes, he is a liability. If you could choose the driver that's in your mirrors, about to try an over-take, you'd probably hope it isn't Vettel!
  4. AlexM

    AlexM Points Scorer Contributor

    Certainly seems a danger to me. He acts like everyone should give way to him, and if they don't, it's their fault. Unfortunately I don't think he's going to learn while Red Bull keep cuddling him and insisting it's okay - it's not okay, he needs to learn to race.
  5. GeoffP

    GeoffP Thank you and good night Contributor

    It is interesting that Hamilton got all the blame in the world for driving too aggressively - especially from oneMark Webber, from the silence in the media evidently driving homicidally is OK...

    Vettel does seem to have got away with too much, it doesn't anyone's development when they aren't pulled up for stepping over the line.

    A little more maturity and he could easily live up to people's expectations (once he re-learns how to pass, somewhat reminiscent of Button!), but if he's not corrected for these actions, I'd hate to think how he'll end up.
  6. Speshal

    Speshal Champion Elect Valued Member

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    German ;)
  7. Galahad

    Galahad Not a Moderator Valued Member

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    It's all about intimidation, it seems to me. Senna and Schumacher were the same - Michael made some extraordinary moves, particularly off the start line, on other drivers, and they always moved out of his way. Interestingly whenever he was behind Villeneuve or Montoya, he didn't do any such thing, because he knew that they (like Webber) weren't going to move for him.

    So in the post-Senna world of driving standards it's not too far from the norm, I wouldn't say. Who was it who ended up on the grass on the main straight in Spain this year? The difference from most similar situations was that this driver wouldn't be intimidated into conceding space.
  8. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    It's very easy to forget that Sebastian is only 22, I recall very vividly being a complete idiot at that age. Sebastian has time on his side and will probably do as I did, and morph into an incomplete idiot. :thumbsup:
  9. Speshal

    Speshal Champion Elect Valued Member

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    Lewis was 1 point off becoming WDC when he was 22 ;)

    You know sebastain doing his "crazy" sign after the accident?

    Well he must have done it twice because in this video http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson ... innin.html - he has his helmet on and in the Times today he's doing it with his helmet off.


    Cry baby :censored: 'd it up and gets consoled by the team, I'd be livid if I were moaning Maaaaaaaaaaaark.

    Young and impetuous, yes, dangerous, probably, an overtaker, no
  10. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    I know the guy has some things he has to work out, some health and safety issues to deal with, he needs to reflect upon taking responsibility, respecting and judging others :crazy: but this is the human condition.

    BP are one hundred and one years old and they are still commiting almighty foul ups and learning the cost of taking short cuts.
  11. teabagyokel

    teabagyokel #dejavu Valued Member

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    I can accept he's young and I can accept the odd borderline move.

    However, what I cannot accept is playing chicken with a McLaren in China. Seriously, if HRT or Lotus wanted to make a pit stop, I still think Vettel would push to try to get Hamilton to a standstill. The more you look at it, it probably deserved a race ban rather than a wrist slap.

    Can you imagine if he was in, say, a McLaren and he'd hit team-mate Hamilton? I get the feeling that he would be less well "protected" from the consequences of his actions in that situation.
  12. siffert_fan

    siffert_fan Too old to watch the Asian races live. Contributor

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    As usual, I find myself agreeing with Galahad, with a few additional points: Horner is partly to blame for not chastising Vettel for his mistakes (although I admit that he may have done so in private). His very public defense of the collision with Webber only makes it more likely that there will be a recurrence.

    I also think that his age and immaturity enter into the picture as well. Hopefully he will grow out of it.

    Yes, Lewis was 22 when he was 1 point away from WDC. How old was he when he rear-ended two cars in the pit lane (one of the dumbest moves I've seen in over 40 years of watching motorsports and one that would have resulted in the incineration of all 3 drivers had it occurred in the 70s)?
  13. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    About twice as dumb as Nico Rosberg who subsequently rear-ended Hamilton ;)

    Let's not forget that Vettel also rear-ended none other than Webber at Japan 2007 behind the safety car.
    I seem to recall that Mark was a lot less diplomatic in his choice of words after that incident :D
    KekeTheKing likes this.
  14. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    Lewis rear ended only Kimi and Nico rear ended Lewis.

    In Canada the position of the pitlane exit light, the idiocyncratic circumstances when it is changed to red for the pace car, the amount of other drivers who have been penalised for exiting while it is red all point to a failure of track design and procedures. Mitigating any incident that occurs at that point at that circuit, the FIA should have sorted that exit out years ago. Lewis and Nico were the victims of a cruel set of circumstances, not least of the almost inexplicable fact that Kimi spotted the light was red!
    KekeTheKing likes this.
  15. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    Not sure where to post this so this thread is as good as any.

    Red Bull have gone into damage limitation/PR mode.
    This is an open letter from Horner on the Red Bull site:

    You may have already read on the team website my answers to some of the important issue which were raised after the grand prix on Sunday. I do however want to address you, the fans of Red Bull Racing directly.

    There has been a lot of criticism on the sites and within the Community and while I can't answer every point, there are some which need to be addressed.

    Firstly, the accident itself was a racing incident. We have two very capable, very determined drivers in what has proved so far this season to be a very quick car. With the McLarens putting immense pressure on our two drivers Mark and Sebastian reacted the way you would expect racing drivers to respond: they raced each other. This has happened many times between them over the last 18 months, and previously they abided by what we have always asked: that as team-mates they show respect for each other and allow one another enough room on the race track.

    Secondly as far as blame goes, we win as a team and we lose as a team and on Sunday we lost as a team. Having looked at all the information it's clear it was a racing accident that shouldn't have happened. After looking at all the facts that weren't available immediately after the race, the entire team, Dr Marko included, fully shares this view.

    Thirdly we now have to re-group. We are a strong team and we'll sit down and discuss what we can learn from this incident. We have immense team spirit here at Red Bull Racing, both Sebastian and Mark are intelligent individuals and we will have the situation resolved before we go to Montreal.

    And finally as I have always pledged, both drivers, will continue to be given equal treatment. The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again.

    We still have a long way to go this year until Abu Dhabi and whichever Red Bull Racing driver you're behind in the fight for the world championship, I hope we - and they - can count on your support,


    I think it's fairly disingenuous and an insult to Mark, after reviewing the footage available, to go from blaming Mark to calling it a racing incident.
    If anything this will just reinforce the view that the team is favouring Vettel.
  16. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Everything in moderation Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    That's a bit of strange thing to put in your statement after you've just been banging on about winning as a team and loosing as a team.

    Maybe it's picking holes in it a bit too much but I wouldn't have worded it as "Which ever driver you support" because that to my mind makes it seem like there is more of a rivalry between the drivers. Horner is talking on behalf of the team and should have there fore surely concluded his statement with something like "it's a long way to go until Abu Dhabi so we hope you get behind our drivers.....". It makes it seem like we are supposed to take sides. Maybe I'm making a bit too much out of it but it does seem a bit of an odd way to finish a statement.
  17. I just have one question about the Vettel incident, Jensen mugged Lewis and Schuey around the outside at the end of the straight so why did he decide to get so tight to the inside of the track.

    Interesting point though, the press were fast enough to label Lewis reckless and the label has stuck (wrongly IMHO) so I do remain curious as to why the press don't seem to be giving Vettel the same kind of scrutiny they do everyone else.
  18. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Everything in moderation Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    Maybe they do in Germany but he's not going to get the same kind of copy over here. I don't recall any of the leading motor sport publications such as Autosport ever labelling Hamilton as reckless. I think most of that tag comes from the pages of fan forums and website related media (606 for example).

    As to the remaining press coverage that Hamilton receives it's down to the simple fact that he arrived on the scene when there was a lack of top line British drivers, he was young, bloody quick, I hate to say this but his skin colour also had a bit to do with it and maybe most of all, he upset the apple cart and in the eyes of the British press, went and gave Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing.

    Seb Vettel will never generate that kind of press over here. That said I'm surprised the tabloids haven't jumped on the bandwagon a bit more but then again this weekend he didn't take out a British driver but helped one to win so again there would have been much mirth but not much in the way of name calling.
  19. Muddytalker

    Muddytalker Points Scorer

    Also, it's a German vs an Australian. The non-motorsport UK media can't bring themselves to support either, so will likely leave alone.
  20. Brogan

    Brogan Running Man Staff Member

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    I wrote about Lewis' "reckless" tag in this thread: Lewis Hamilton: Racer or reckless?

    I wonder how many of the foreign journalists cheered when Vettel went out in Turkey as they did when Hamilton went out in China? ;)
  21. KekeTheKing

    KekeTheKing Banned Supporter

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    I've posted the footage of Hamilton's attempted overtake on Vettel at DailyMotion.

    With Hamilton alongside, Vettel pulls the exact same move he did with Webber. Luckily for Lewis, he was further away from Seb than Mark was. And actually, the little jink to the right forces Hamilton to move right as well, helping him miss his braking point, allowing Vettel to hold the place.

    There was an interesting exchange after the race between the top 3 about Seb's tactics. Right before they went out to the podium, Jenson was talking to Mark about what happened between him and Seb, and Lewis said, "He did the same thing to me". Button thought that Lewis was talking about him, and said, "Not really, all they said to me was...." Lewis cut in on Jenson and said no no no, I was talking about Seb, before Jenson could finish his sentence, which would have been very intriguing info.

    Mark's face after telling Jenson what happened was priceless. It looked like he was saying, 'What else would you expect from this guy'

    It's going to be interesting to see how aggressive Vettel is in the upcoming races.

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