Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by Brogan, May 7, 2011.
I thought the Scottish would appreciate negatives and name calling.
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And that is why people from Scotland want to leave the UK, the respect towards us is very poor from England for many centuries, of course we are no saints ourselves flashing our arses at the English duing war (Braveheart)
The Hilarity is that you assume i am English when I am Scottish.
I don't think it appears Scotland wants to leave the UK. I think they want to cherry pick what bits they do and dont want from the UK.
I still think that as leaving would affect the whole UK then England, Wales and N Ireland should have the vote as well.
Slyboogy Many a true word spoken in jest though.
I just hope the bloody Welsh go as well...
Quick couple of questions..
If Scotland is currently governed by (and it appears holding responsible) Westminster, why is anyone paying for Hollyrood? I think laying the centre of Government as the root of debate is unwise. Although, wasn't the biggest conservative representation in recent years the result of Tony Blair, 50% Scottish and Gordon Brown, 100% Scottish running Westminster?
What makes people think that an agreement between Britain and Norway on North Sea Oil will automatically vest to Scotland? If I was Norway, and there was oil left, I'd certainly keep the benefits tied in escrow for the next millennium if there was a chance or revisiting that one.
I just don't get the nationalist emotions that drive this one. Since the Queen is a direct descendant of James VI of Scotland she I'd the country's monarch, so there is not exactly a justifiable monarchical reason to separate.
The whole debate is all about (a) history, and that probably is the Roman's fault - I knew I'd get berlusconi in here somewhere, and (b) buck passing. No one will want to unwind the national links because of that.
The reason that the debate is happening is that Salmond is a power crazed, self important, greedy, stupid leech on society who is has managed to get a public voice.
It's us that's been trying to get rid of you for over a millenium FB
That's the reason the debate is happening now. The reason there is a debate, is that Scotland is a geographically and culturally distinct entity from England and therefore questions of democracy and representation will always arise. The Act of Union didn't create a homogenous nation state, and goodness me, hasn't it had a long time to work? Royal genealogy has little and less to do with it - the SNP would keep the Queen as head of state of an independent Scotland anyway. The United Kingdom used to include the whole of Ireland, of course, so these things can change. Ultimately I think it's for Scots to decide, but I wouldn't presume to tell them whether or not they've got any valid grievances.
It's a shame Mr Salmond cannot follow such sage advice. His vote tactics seem to be best described as lambasting.
I think one of the most relevant commentaries I ever heard on Scotland was a throw away comment by Billy Connolly on Parkinson (I think in the '80s). He was taking about his influences and I paraphrase:
All us Scottish were used to walking round with our shoulders shrugged and heads bowed feeling insignificant when Sean comes strutting onto the screen like a panther.
He was describing the influence Sean Connery had in playing Bond and went on to say how this gave him the confidence to have faith in himself to perform in folk clubs.
He was not describing just himself, but the feeling around him in the Clyde shipyards.
I don't believe there is any more cultural difference between England and Scotland than there is between Canterbury and Liverpool. The main emotion that is being played on is the National pride, something that Scotland, England and any part of any union should encourage, but then, I've always been equally proud of being from Somerset as I have of being from England and indeed the UK, I feel disappointed that those from Ayeshire, Dyfed or anywhere else may not feel the same, but as implied by Billy's commentary, the social groups in areas can easily be reinforced by negative emotions.
Where I start to object is when politicians, voted to represent the electorate's wishes within the framework of their best interests, playing to historic prejudices and negative emotions to the exclusion of clearly detailed fact. Said facts may well support his argument, but then, the backbone of the financial story seems to be NSO, which may possibly be available to an independent Scotland, but even if it does become Scottish, how long will the revenues continue?
If Salmond is vying for greater financial independence then fair play, but ultimately someone is going to have to underwrite his promises and, depending on the vote, it's either the Scottish people or the whole of the UK. If the UK are to underwrite these promises then we deserve a refendum as I don't think he has the money to deliver. If it's just the Scottish (as if Westminster would let that happen) then the Scottish population deserve to know and understand the real risks, so rather than us and them Salmond should deliver a p and l
Ah, so it's all about the money. Fair enough. When Salmond presents the full economic proposal, as he certainly must, I'm sure nobody here will question its honesty.
By negative emotions, yes, but also by real phenomena, a widening gap in economic growth rates, lack of public investment, poor infrastructure and specific local problems relating to health not being tackled seriously.
Sean Connery is a nationalist and staunch member of the SNP. Interestingly, Billy Connolly once described the SNP as "racist" and "a joke". So, if I have got this right, the fictional character of Bond as played by Connery, inspires pride in the Scot' Billy Connelly and his Clyde-side compatriots, but the actor Connery's political position and leanings are comical and discriminatory. I can see how the Scottish independence debate is more complicated than even I suspected.
And please remember that Connery has been an ex-pat for donkeys and not paid a penny in tax towards his beloved nation for decades. Always easy when you don't live there.
Having said that, I can also see that he might provide inspiration for others!
I think my reasoning for mentioning these two was how clearly it came across to me that without their influences the culture was very self deprecating in major parts of the Scottish workforce.
In answer to your comment Galahad, for me, yes it is money. I'm not Scottish and I believe the immediate impact on the British taxpayer will be positive, but never paid back. But I honestly believe Salmond's policies and budget will crash and burn, and Westminster will throw them a lifeline so, yes I'm worried what it would cost me.
With regard to regional policy/investment, i have never lived in an area that has received such benefit, but then I cannot see an area where jobs still exist because of it within the UK.
On health, with permanent health problem myself I have seen support stripped away from me since the 70's, you used to be guaranteed free prescriptions for life, then your doctor could prescribe according to need, now I have to pay for each prescription and go 6 miles out of my way every month to pay for a prescription - I know it's controversial, but with free prescriptions and poor lifestyle choices/education being the core difference to Scotland.
But then, since Scottish students still receive grants why is knowledge a problem?
Growth is a current moot point, but over the last 30 years the UK has been supported by the growth in the invisibles market, this has centred around London and therefore driven a disparity in growth rates, the only way we could have made the rates similar was by taxing executives and business to the extent that was tried in the 70's when the business executives left for the US and European headquarters started looking to take the tax breaks offered by the Netherlands.
I don't claim to know the answer's, but I'm pretty certain having a government sponsored textile industry in Manchester is not one, and there's a load of other commercial manipulations the Government could fail at by trying.
A few years back, when the SNP started to be a power, Sean Connery stated that when Scotland became independent he would return there to live and pay his taxes. He must be getting just a little concerned by now.
Nah, he'll have keeled over by then, so fortune and nationalism intact.
What the **** has the royal family got to do with it? as far as I'm concerned they can all **** off they are an outdated outmoded inbred bunch of shysters from whom the whole country including Scotland would be better off without.
Even Cameron is the bastard descendent of one of them and is fifth cousin to the queen, he even called himself working class at one point, what a joke.....
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