Jenson, Lewis and Tyres - A theory

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by ExtremeNinja, Mar 18, 2012.

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  1. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    I dont subscribe to the view that Lewis kills tyres and Jenson gets more life out of them. It's too simplistic a view and the evidence is only there if you are selective with the information you draw your conclusions on.

    I think that the way Jenson drives maybe keeps the tyres at a more optimum temperature in certain conditions, such as today. His smooth arcing approach to tackling corners will keep a more consistent load on the tyres, where Lewis' more pointy style will fire the tyre in bursts more. These different styles and the way those styles work the tyres will have alternating benefits and deficits in different circumstances.

    In summary, both drivers load thier tyres differently and in doing this get varying performance out of them.

    I've been developing this theory for a while but am fairly convinced now. Can anybody add to this? I'd love to hear people's thughts on the matter. Sorry for being brief with this. I'm hoping that by making the suggestion, we can collectively fill in the blanks or dismiss it altogether.
     
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  3. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    I think Jez,TC and Sushi will be publishing the tyre analysis soon which should show exactly what's going on.
    They did a pretty good set for last year too.

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2011-formula-one-pirelli-tyre-analysis.4315/
     
  4. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    [Edit] thank you for the link Brogan. That's not really what I am looking for as the metrics do not indicate human factors. [End Edit]

    I'm not sure how that data could possibly add or detract anything to the credibility or substance of my theory. It will show lap times and tyre life, yes, but I can't see how it will reflect on any correlation between consistency and application of tyre loads and resulting lap times. Maybe I'm missing something. It's entirely possible, so please do let me know if I'm being thick.
     
  5. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    My mistake.

    I thought you wanted to hear others' thoughts but obviously not...

    I'll leave you to it.
     
  6. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Woah! Where did that come from Brogan? That was a sideswipe I wasn't expecting. You didn't offer any thoughts. You pointed me to the tyre analysis thread which, to my knowledge, is about who made thier tyres last longest and which tyres they were using. If there is an analysis of driving styles, how different drivers approach corners and apply throttle, then I ve missed it and all you had to do was inform me. I wasn't looking for a slap. I was trying to provide a starting point for some discussion which I have not seen elsewhere on the site. I was trying to make a contribution and encourage further contribution.

    It has already been said that Lewis and Jenson's tyre analysis is inconclusive and that the metrics provided are almost indistinguishable. Keke offered this information on another thread.
     
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  7. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Was it my use of the word "possibly"? Did that project the wrong tone?

    [edit] using guesswork I have tried to address the issue above, with a couple of small annotated edits.
     
  8. KekeTheKing

    KekeTheKing Banned Supporter

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    It's clear there's little between these two at the current moment. Identifying the exact reason for one or the other being slower on a particular day is difficult task to say the least.
     
  9. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Yes. I think all we can do is speculate and try to do so intelligently. We may never know.
     
  10. KekeTheKing

    KekeTheKing Banned Supporter

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    For today, I blame Nicole!
     
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  11. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    Didn't she put enough pressure in the tyres! :)
     
  12. jez101

    jez101 Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me Contributor

    I understand the difference between the question Ninja is posing and the one that we answered with the tyre analysis. Ours is the "what is the difference" whereas Ninja's is "why is there a difference", I think.

    The best we have on this exact question from last year is that there is a difference and Jenson is better, slightly. see http://cliptheapex.com/threads/overtaking-style-and-tyres.4572/#post-107810

    Why though...? I have no idea and no real background to be able to explain what the numbers are telling me :)
     
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  13. KekeTheKing

    KekeTheKing Banned Supporter

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    I think the ride height was a bit off. :whistle:
     
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  14. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    First you have to determine whether there is a difference before you can start theorising as to what the cause is.

    Hence why I considered the analysis to be relevant.
     
  15. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Not being race engineers or formula one drivers, there are only so many things that we can determine. When there is a problem and the cause is not evident, often finding the solution first will point to the cause. I would like to think that it is a valid point for discussion, for those who would like to participate.
     
  16. Vortex

    Vortex Race Winner

    Today, Jenson was just better! Simples.
     
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  17. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Cheers for the link. Tricky theme, isn't it? I like asking questions like this because they lead to more questions which lead to more answers. Sometimes the questions pop up at a higher rate than the answers though, which potentially leaves us even more befuddled.
     
  18. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    He knows that, Lewis knows that, we know that. Simples, however, it is not. I don't want to isolate todays race, or even Jenson and Lewis. They are a great case study, though.
     
  19. tranquility2k9

    tranquility2k9 Podium Finisher

    In todays race, Buttons tyres seem to degrade at pretty much the same rate as Hamiltons. He just seemed quicker. I said in another thread, if it was all about tyre degradation then I don't see why Button would be so much quicker at the start of the race. Button pulled out a 3.9 second gap over 9 laps. From then on till lap 15 he kept the gap between 3.3 and 3.6 seconds.

    If you look at laps 12 - 15 then you can see their degradation and tyre state at the end of the stint looks very similar.

    12: LH: 1.33.7, JB: 1.33.6
    13: LH: 1.33.8, JB: 1.33.9
    14: LH: 1.34.2, JB 1.34.1
    15: LH: 1.34.7, JB 1.34.6

    So Lewis' lack of pace in the race is certainly not as clear cut as tyre degradation.
     
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  20. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Thanks Tranq.

    So where do we look next? Using today as a case study:

    Is Button taking quicker lines?
    Is he braking later?
    Is he on the throttle earlier?
    Is he energising the tyres better?
    All of the above?
    Something else?

    We know he got a better start and we know that this afforded him clean air and a better strategy, but there is more to account for. We may not be able to answer these questions but they are the questions that Lewis will or should be asking himself.

    A lot of the pundits and experts are pointing straight at the tyres. Is this a cop out or are we misunderstanding them? It seems that it has just become a fashionable thing to say and an acceptable explanation to give to the dumb viewer.
     
  21. Cookinflatsix

    Cookinflatsix Banned

    I also think its too easy to just say tyres to explain today's difference in pace, if you will allow me to put forward my idea about today at the risk of derailing your interesting thread or of attracting comments from those who think that there is no explantation beyond Button simply being a faster driver than Lewis

    Ok, so we know that Lewis is generally quicker in quali (last years stats confirm this), we also know that Jenson loves this track ( 3 out of 4), we also know that McLaren miscalculated on the fuel front (MW confirms), the final piece is that the tyre wear of both were similar ( laptime fall off after a number of laps, hopefully Jez will confirm this)

    From the above we have Lewis quicker in q3, and Jenson much closer than normal ( mistakes notwithstanding), in the first 8 or 9 laps Button was significantly and consistently faster, able to pull almost 4 seconds. This is a massive gap over another in the same car who was quicker the day before

    So what has changed in parc ferme since quali? what is allowed to change? The fuel load

    Is it possible that Mclarens fuel calculation mistake extended to more fuel for Lewis than Jenson to explain the speed gap until the 9 th lap when both we're asked to go into extreme fuel save mode, maybe Lewis could have carried on at normal trim for a few more laps, equating to his extra weight and levelling out his earlier disadvantage?

    Finally Lewis with more fuel would also convenietly explain his sluggish start relative to the other identical car

    I am sure there are those who will pile in to complain or rubbish this idea, however maybe someone could look at the probability of this being an explanation and not tyre management

    Edit; tooncheese seems to confirm that there is nothing to choose between the two wrt tyre degradation, however interestingly he also says this;

    . I can’t think of an explanation for the unusual start to Hamilton’s first (Option) stint. It may be that it looks bad as Button was pumping in fast laps at the start before settling down. I will let you draw any other conclusions yourself.
     
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