Current Alfa Romeo Racing (formerly Sauber)

Discussion in 'Teams' started by FB, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Il_leone

    Il_leone Champion Elect

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    Its all well saying that but given Ferrari's launch yesterday where they acknowledged they are hoping to deliver then seriously no one honestly believes either Alfa or Haas will be expected to challenge the No 1 team this season
     
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  3. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Leaving conspiracy theories aside, one could consider both teams ranking last year, and their realistic chances this year. We cannot eliminate possibility of miracles happening in F1, but I say, what a jump that would be.
    There is of course one area which could realistically sour the relationship, and that is during lapping, and people creating rather unnecessary problems, by indirectly getting involved in championship, if blocking is on a specific car only. I am not advocating free pass, but when a blue flag is raised, drivers in timely fashion should yield. This was not always a case in recent years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    RasputinLives with reference to your last paragraph, I am not implying a slower car should get out of the way, what I said was that a slower car with the teams agreement should get out of the way. We do not know the terms and conditions of engine supply and or discounts given for favours, we can surmise that there are perks given for holding up the engine suppliers competitors and jumping off the track to favour the engine suppliers cars or even other cars with the same engine if they could /can hinder the engine suppliers main competitor.
    This is F1, it is many years since a race was decided completely on the track unfortunately, I would welcome the day when the engine suppliers no longer race and just supply the engine, the teams then either play with the engine ( power unit) or farm out the preparation to a third party as was the case way back in the days of the Ford Cosworth DFV. OK slightly off topic, but we have three engine suppliers spending huge amounts of money to ensure the suppliers team has an advantage, unfair or otherwise, Ferrari must have decided MB had more than two cars on the track and it was an advantage so therefore decided to break with their tradition of not supplying engines to other teams.
    Advertising wise it also makes sense to supply either body/chassis parts to enable that team to be more competitive to promote the suppliers engine as being more powerful, so possibly Williams may now get a bit more help in the aero department. Today's F1 we have at the moment three manufacturers racing each other with 2 or three teams each with a fourth supplier but not at the moment a manufacturer supporting one/two teams.
    Formula one as we knew it is dead:sick:
     
  5. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Dartman that was kind of the point I was making regards independent teams.

    But apparently Alfa, Haas and Racing Point are all independent teams so we have nothing to worry about.
     
  6. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    ROFL
     
  7. Titch

    Titch Champion Elect Premium Contributor

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    Maybe the independent teams ??!! should be allowed to buy the engine that they consider to be the best for each and every race. One race a Mercedes the next a Ferrari or whatever takes their fancy. With an option of getting their money back if they don’t get the most updated engine from the chosen supplier.
    :D
     
  8. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    Shame....Where does that leave Mclaren in all of this. With all that history. Or otherwise RBR. I guess they should just jump out of the way when a manufacturer team approaches behind them. Bitter pill to swallow.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  9. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    McLaren aren't at that point yet. Williams have been doing it for years.
     
  10. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    When was that (implied) golden age of F1?
     
  11. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    I guess they should rename F1 the RenaultMercFerrari series.
    The RMF series really has some serious challenges. From budget issues to declining viewership, and teams with history playing lackey to the big 3
     
  12. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    3 names are who they are (not sure why RBR is not in that group), but who is a regulator of F1? Not Ferrari. Not Mercedes. Not Renault.

    Maybe we should be talking to different people, and with declining viewership, I am sure it is not so simple and blame those three, while the other angels just innocently floating around in paddock like snowflakes. Moreover, why have Ferrari in that group, and leave McLaren out; aren't they similar? Ferrari makes engines, however who is blocking McLaren from the same? Bad decisions?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  13. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    I know... I'm just having some fun here
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  14. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Izumi BradMan what's your take on why viewership is declining and races are less interesting?

    Oh and why the average age of the viewer is now 20 years older than it was?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  15. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    I do not hold any deep rooted convictions. I can only offer a few ideas of undetermined value; just personal opinions about influences I would investigate, had I write in-depth analysis.

    Age makes difference. In my younger years I had to read, think, and do systemic research using various credible sources when I was after some understanding. It took me a while to form opinion, and mind was not cluttered with rapidly changing images. Today, and I see this around me, a lot of young people have a short attention span, Wiki is their source of "facts," click bite headlines are enough to form what becomes first just a bite, yet later accepted "fact". Superficial analyses omit often core issue, thus rendered as inaccurate and misleading. Manipulation of masses is normal with advent of internet, and media knows that well.

    Short attention span is in misalignment with sport which is not so simple to understand, and full of out of sight activities in preparation for two hour race. Not too many stay for debriefing, or take time to understand what they saw. Races are boring as various surveys of public opinion suggests, yet I am not really successful finding someone who could coherently describe (define) what is a good race. One wants 35 cars on track, someone else wants every 2 min a different race leader, yet someone else wants to open gate and have every Dick, Harry and Marry to participate when mood strikes them. I am not in any of those groups.

    Having said that, one can always find exceptions, and find young people who really are into it. Problem is, I did not hear yet (maybe Memo did not reach my notebook) neither from FiA, or Commercial rights holder definition of the product - F1 what it will be a few years down the road, and how we get there. I should also say that I am tired of ad hoc mad dancing with short term aims trying to please everyone, and ending up with pleasing no one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  16. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    So you're saying there is nothing wrong with the sport? Just the younger generation need to mature a bit to enjoy it for what it is?

    Never thought of it like that.
     
  17. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Sorry for giving you that impression, but no.

    Basic dilemma you have what is easier to change, changing taste in sport for several millions of fans, or improve on product you have? This might be not only generational problem, and market you are operating in. I am not trained in marketing, but I doubt about one fit is good for all of us. Is F1 character loved in England just as much is loved in Italy or Vietnam? Is that product (F1) loved by 70+ or 25+ ? Hopping around the globe might be good for milking promoters, but I am not sure what it does to love of F1. One could easily arrive to a conclusion that every decade sport needs to change and keep up with evolution of mind, even if you loose some old timers.
     
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  18. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    That bit about the average viewership being 20 older than it was is really interesting. If I'm to guess, F1 has'nt lost some of it's charm and sentimentality even during these trying times. It STILL remains the pinnacle of motor racing, even in a haphardous way. A lot of credit should still be attributed to Ecclestone, although he lost the plot the latter years.

    Stating the obvious.. I think ppl are sick of domination.

    From my experience....

    Domination is really a double-edge sword. The reason why I say that is during the Schumacher domination years it was'nt all that bad. I think Schumie just had a certain charisma about him and attracted a lot of following. I was at the other side of this spectrum supporting a flying fin Hakkinen. Ferrari's advantages assisted this domination. Many fans assume that the tyres were designed specifically for Ferrari team but we know that's not really the case. They just had unlimited testing on two tracks (tyres also started to be the cause of their downfall when Michelin shod teams gained advantage in numbers and had more data to analyse which affected Ferrari badly). Couple that with a huge budget and resources and a really great Team Principal that brought departments together magnificently...its just a recipe for success. I've read that Senna's death caused a huge vacuum in competition between 2 of the greatest drivers ever in F1... I don't think so.... I actually think Senna would have retired by then.

    Then Renault mass-damper illegal championships. Then Schumie retiring and alot of fans I knew left the sport. It was just ... WEIRD. Fast forward to RBR domination years. Absolutely Classic! But not seen as such. Vettel advantages were never more than .3 secs, and that's when he was winning on consistent bases, if I'm correct. 2 of those domination years had the championship down to the wire at the final races. Their rivals just did a bad job. And don't believe St.Alfonso's claim that he pulled a rabbit out of a hat and drove "beyond the car". That's bullshit. Ferrari had a great car during those 2 competing years. Viewership started declining, because fans incorrectly thought Vettel was'nt a worthy winner. It's all Newey, as if he actually drove the car. The whole sad point was those remarks from Alonso and Hamilton, they would not like to win that way (no, they would rather win in supposedly equal capability cars)... discrediting Vettel at every turn. How ironic dear Hamilton. Comments like those really did not help.

    Apparently both Renault and Merc pushed for these new regulation hybrid engines from early on. Apparently they (Merc) were working on those engines 3-4 years in advance. Couple that with the fact that the team have huge resources it was a recipe for absolute disaster... and it proved to be the case. Cars over 1 sec advantage in speed. Party mode settings. Tuning their engines down halfway thru a race. Rival teams flip-flopping about. Secret Pirelli test and the team gets off Scott-free (they had those rear tyre heating problems since the supposedly RBR winning years. Enough to drive fans NUTS!!!

    In all this Liberty and FIA are still trying to level out the playing field and proving an incompetent bunch. I hope these new regulations help, and bring back and attract more fans. But we've been down this road before... we've seen and know how it looks. Teams holding FIA and themselves to ransom with agreements. Teams disputing agreements. No agreement over budgets, how long did the FIA try to implement a budget cut, which was successful in a miniscule way. These hybrid engines were suppose to curb costs... It has escalated further! Look how stupid these engine penalties are. Supposedly to cut cost, now teams willingly use it for further improvements/corrections. Uncertainty with Liberty's commitment... Rumours about them trying to sell their stake then in the same breath ways to build their investment in F1 on a longer term. Brexit worries.

    Trying times indeed.... Enough to drive fans NUTS!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  19. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Brad, how do you reconcile differences between have and have not in F1 without anyone leaving in disgust? (Tier 1 vs Tier 2?)

    Last news of course we got from FiA - there weren't any new teams knocking on the gate, let me in.
     
  20. BradMan

    BradMan Test Driver

    Million-dollar q!
    Who's really the gatekeepers keeping potentials at bay on what bloody criteria...

    Nevermind the cost of startups and what really the chance of them succeeding.
     
  21. Il_leone

    Il_leone Champion Elect

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    Would Maranello be happy if Alfa were in an unlikely scenario challenging or beating Ferrari in pursuit of the championship ?
     

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