Grand Prix 2018 Mexico Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by Angel, Oct 21, 2018.

  1. Clay

    Clay Test Driver

    He's not bitter and he's also has great respect for him that he sacrificed so much to win the WC. Rosberg isn't a Vettel or a Hamilton.

    This race is only the third race in which both Mercedes cars finished without either being on the podium since 2014. In the same period they've won 73% of their races and achieved 84 poles. Not even Red Bull or Ferrari were this dominant.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  3. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Happy to be me again Contributor

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    I agree about the dominance but Webber should have been 2nd in the championship at least once if he was performing to the level he should be.

    I might call on the ghost of teabagyokel to slam the stats out on this and it's one of his favourite topics.
     
    F1Brits_90 and Clay like this.
  4. Clay

    Clay Test Driver

    2011 or 2013 he should’ve really been at least second, yes.
     
  5. Il_leone

    Il_leone Champion Elect

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    Clay
    You mean 2010 where he was 2nd coming to the last race but it just felt that he did not have the belief in himself nor the full backing of the team which he desired at the time

    2011 & 2013 for some reason or another he just could not find any consistency and when he did have a chance to win races the luck seem to go against him
     
  6. Ruslan

    Ruslan Rookie

    Well, the Red Bull fuel flow issue they took care of after a couple of races. I am not sure when Mercedes started using the vents in the wheels, but Ferrari only challenged it the race before last, so I am guessing it was only recently implemented.
     
  7. Spa? I'm not sure and I'd have to check but Ferrari and the stewards had plenty of time to look into this matter, IMHO now it's time to move on
     
  8. Angel

    Angel Points Scorer Supporter

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    That is true Publius Cornelius Scipio I think in part it's because that incident has a name which makes it more memorable. When you name something like that it seems to lodge more in the memory like say a storm. If you have several storms most people wouldn't recall much about what happened when, give it a name and somehow you do it seems.

    So yeah, people remember the 'multi 21' incident above a lof of others for that reason I think.
     
  9. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Memories are sometimes unreliable, yet in easy going manner for lazy minds fuzzy recalls taken as objective facts. The same goes for claims, that RBR car was "far best" of them all when Vettel was there. Total rubbish. Car was good, not doubt about it, but not that superior over others in leading group. Moreover, restrictions weren't that imposing, countermeasures and recovery was realistically possible during a season in progress without going bankrupt in the process. Nothing in history of the F1 however compares to situation we have experienced in 2014 onwards. Grid was (remains?) divided into three tier series, with MB being a sole member of the Tier 1. Is it better today? A lot of indicators do suggest optics of equality are deceiving. Rule books, as normative references, need to be rewritten IMO as priority 1.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  10. Ruslan

    Ruslan Rookie

    Well, the season is over (as it damn near impossible for Ferrari to take the team championship even if they finish 1-2 in the next two races) but I am kind of curious of how much the performance differences between the two teams this year were due to car and power unit design and how much was due to "tricks." It appears the second half of the season was dominated by "tricks", first Ferrari's electrical boost (apparently corrected by a second sensor) and then Mercedes' wheel vents (apparently corrected by filling them in). And there might be a few other "tricks" we don't really know about.

    Right now, I get the sense that Ferrari has the edge over Mercedes. That just may have been a Mexican GP advantage, but we shall see. At this point, I think these two cars are so developed that we won't see a big difference relative to each other by the time the next season starts in mid-March. So wondering if the last couple of races of this season is going to tell us something about next season. I am thinking that it is possible that Ferrari now has the car advantage coming into 2019. Not really sure how or why Mercedes seems to be falling behind.
     
  11. vintly

    vintly Mostly bacon Premium Contributor

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    I think this was also because at the time of multi 21, and still now really, Vettel was seen by the vast majority of F1 fans as the villain (the finger, relentless capability to win races, being German, having won the WDC for three years in a row already) and Webber was seen as a saint (thoroughly decent chap, Aussie grit, lives mostly in the UK, not German, perceived no. 2 in the naughty Red Bull team). Most fans used to seriously dislike Vettel it seems. I think that's changed some since then, as people have realised he's actually a decent chap himself.
     
  12. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    Ferrari will have the advantage history says they have to because in 68yrs of f1 Mercedes are only the 2nd constructor achieve 5 drivers titles in a row only ferrari (2000 - 04) its over due as dominance usually only lasts 4 yrs. So historically 6 yrs would be unprecedented

    vintly I've always said out the car, love the guy i think hes funny & entertaining. It was in the car that the problems arose. This might be a german thing of selfish ruthlessness regardless of the consequences. As Schumacher & Rosberg both shown that at times 1 more, than the other. But vettel last few months has been more team based. Which is nice to see
     
  13. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    With so many variables involved in comparative analysis, I am left wondering how anyone can declare result and be certain of its validity. In my opinion Ferrari had matched MB on very few tracks, Monza being one of them, however on most of the other tracks - Scuderia felt behind. In Mexico RBR design dominated the scene. I have no feeling at all, that Ferrari is/was a dominant team in 2018. After all, if it would come down to Vettel and/or pit-wall strategist only, and car was perfect, then why we would hear about domestic disputes between Binotto and Arrivabene? Car was lacking, that's why. (Difficult setup was probably one of the issues they were battling whole year around.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  14. Ruslan

    Ruslan Rookie

    Yea, I am not sure this is a particularly good precedent. From 1958 to 1976 no team had won the constructors championship more than twice in a row, then Ferrari won it for a third time in 1977 (but only won the driver's championship for two of those years). Then.....no one beat that record until 1991, when McLaren won it four times in the row. And then Ferrari broke that record in 2004 winning it five times in the row. So....it took 17 years to break the first record...14 years to break the next....and 13 years to break the next. So this appears to be a downward trend (which I of course blame Bernie and Max for).....so the record of one team winning six championships in a row is actually overdue.

    I guess it depends on which precedents you look for.
     
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  15. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    Good point i wouldn't put it past them red bull have been scare mongering that great 2019 rules that should help overtaking arent minor biggest since 2014. But in recent F1 (90s :D) normally by 4, we've either had a rules change or the others have caught up in 1992 1998 2014

    But i wouldn't put it past Mercedes to make it 6. As if you give Lewis a car to challenge. He will. I think im correct that the titles hes challenged but lost have all gone down to last rd 2010 & 2016
     
  16. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Angel There could be more to it than just convenient label (Multi 21) attached to the incident with Vettel. I've read recently related comments on one website, where an author of the post wrote, trying to grasp with explanation of hate - paraphrasing - Vettel won too much for anyone's taste, he is also German, you know, and it all adds up.

    One can make of such literary masterpiece whatever one wishes, however it is self evident, that ugly side of human character sometimes shines through regardless how much some individuals try to hide it. Unfortunately over years I came to acquire opinion, that this sport has quite a few of them in media and on sidelines (not sure that FiA is totally immune to noises on sidelines).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  17. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Was Ferrari a best car in this (2018) season? Vettel thinks it was not. I had the same feeling for some time. It was OK in some aspects over 2017 prototype, but MB is more stable, and faster horse.

    As expected, not everyone is however paying attention or buying into this, and charging him with making excuses for his own shortcomings. I am rather cause & effect guy. If Vettel can do just one thing in his life, it is to drive a fast car, however taking it race by race to its limits (overdriving it?), is a risky behavior on its own without doubt, and it has its downfalls; odds aren't always with you. Germany IMHO was one example when his twitchy horse kicked back.

    Liberties taken by some leading drivers against him when they saw a red car approaching, is perhaps another issue for some other time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  18. Chasz

    Chasz Points Scorer

    I agree that Ferrari hasn't been the best car over the course of the season so far. At some races the Merc has dominated and Ferrari hasn't been able to that as often. However, the car certainly has been a very close match over the course of the season and if the Ferrari is faster for the last two races then I would say that they have been on a par over the course of the whole season!

    The key difference for the WDC being Hungary, Germany and Monza that Ferrari should have won.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
    Ruslan likes this.
  19. Titch

    Titch Smile Premium Contributor

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    For the last two races you can expect Mercedes performance to drop off, they will start to make adjustments towards 2019, why would they continue to worry about beating Ferrari now. They want a head start on them for next season. So Ferrari will probably be faster than the Mercedes for the last two races, proving very little, it certainly won’t prove that they were on a par all season.
     
  20. vintly

    vintly Mostly bacon Premium Contributor

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    MB will want to contribute to dominate if they can. They’ll want the race win. So will Lewis. They’ll want a one-two. They may elect to contrive a Bottas win if possible. There’s loads of reasons to want to beat Ferrari, not to mention the fact that it’s still mathematically possible for Ferrari to win the WCC.
     
  21. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    Then why shouldn't Ferrari concentrate all their energies to next season, starting with Brazil Titch ?
     

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