Grand Prix 2018 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by Titch, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. The Artist.....

    The Artist..... Champion Elect

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    Thanks... mind, I disagree with the final line of the conclusion... Prost crashing out was nothing to do with the lack of the safety car... far more due to Prost not pitting and carrying on on slicks on a soaking wet track! The conditions were worse than Saturday morning at Hockenheim, yet Prost continued on slicks... that was always going to end in tears!
     
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  3. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Almost everyone - on sidelines - is classifying Vettel's off as "his mistake". But was it? Mistake implies Vettel had other rational options which he in crucial moment omitted. What were those options? Drive slowly? Change tires? Break 6 meters earlier? Ours is a nice strategy call after race with wine and cheese in hand, letting late wisdom take better of us.

    We all in here know that top drivers in race condition live on the edge, that's what we expect of them, and that's what makes them different from rest of us. It is risky behavior, and it doesn't takes much to cross that line which by definition is a cliff edge. Combination of several situational factors can make difference if one ends up rather quickly a hero, or a zero. Vettel passed the same spot 54(?) times before without problem, and then in next lap he advanced marginally his breaking point, and its was all over. Kill him for that. (Ehmm, just rhetorically.)

    It is not my intent to act as Vettel's apologist, however I do not see everything as black-and-white issues, and perhaps a voice of reason will be permitted to ask for understanding, placing the incident in proper context. Combination of factors, never the same from incident to incident, many of them beyond driver's control, are part of race results. As a fellow man, it is my humble position that it is not necessary to deface the man who is risking his life for our pleasure, race after race.
     
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  4. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    I saw that race, here agree with you and appreciate your point. My point however was, bad things happen occasionally even to good men. Race conditions are never the same, just similar, and it might take one parameter to push you unexpectedly over. In Prost case it was perhaps his deliberate strategy that bit him, in Vettel case it might have been drop in tire temp a grade or two. Was he aware of it and should adjust his MO? I am not going to second guess him.
     
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  5. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    Wasn't it at the German GP at Nurburgring where Hammy ran in to the gravel trap in a sudden downpour, was lifted out by a track side crane and then went on to win the race?

    Anyway, Vettel's misfortune has reinvigorated the drivers title as Hamilton looked a beaten man on Saturday and, I suspect, if Vettel had won the race on Sunday would have been even more dejected. We now have a Lewis Hamilton with more bounce than Tigger and who will fire more prayers to his god before each race than Billy Graham on speed.
     
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  6. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Everything in moderation Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    An interesting season where the results are turning back and forth more due to the mistakes of either driver than their excellence.
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Vettel has had problems before in iffy conditions where he has needed to increase is lap speed due to being hunted down by a faster car, Canada 2011 is one of the most famous but I think there were a couple of others though not race ending mistakes but position losing errors.
     
  8. I am among the ones who think that Vettel made a mistake and I rest my case. He knew that his tyres were very weak under the rain, that is because he had used them for a significant amount of laps and the thread was therefore low. A low thread means that a few drops of rain are enough to reduce the temperature of the surface of the tyre below the ideal operating range meaning that the car suddenly loses all grip. And that's what happened, when he tried to brake he lost the rear end of the car, he could either go into the barrier or spin the car (and end up into the barrier).

    I also happen to believe that had Vettel pitted, or better had he called the pit to say that he was coming in for inters or ultrasofts, most of the field would have followed him with possibly the exception of Hamilton who was on a new set of tyres (so with most of the thread and no cooling issue) and especially on a softer compound that afforded him much more grip than the Ferraris. We also have to bear in mind that when Vettel crashed it looked as if the rain was there to stay, they were all waiting for someone to take the punt and change tyres. Without the SC most drivers would have had to change tyres because at that moment they had some serious issues with a very low grip level. The SC changed all that because they could wait to see what would happen with the weather, without the SC they would have had a few very challenging laps.

    So someone with Vettel's experience should have known better, the same in fairness applies to the Ferrari pit wall but I don't have much faith in Ferrari's ability to manage difficult situations so IMHO Vettel should have taken the lead.

    Vettel's mistake was not in misjudging the braking point, it was not realising that in those conditions and with such worn out tyres he had lost any grip and act accordingly
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  9. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    Ferrari’s team order “wasn’t clear enough” – Raikkonen

    Ferrari’s message to Raikkonen
    Jock Clear:
    So Kimi this is Jock. You are aware we need to look after tyres. Both cars need to look after tyres and you two are on different strategies. Your track strategies are slightly different and we’d like you not to hold up Seb. Thankyou.
    Kimi Raikkonen:
    I’m not sure what you mean. What do you want me to do?
    Jock Clear:
    Losing as little time as possible, obviously, but when you can Seb is capable of going quicker but, er, he’s hurting his tyres and you are as well, we need to look after them.

    Kimi Raikkonen:
    Do you want me to let him go? Just tell me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  10. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    Hamilton: Hockenheim win was better than Silverstone 2008
    May be
     
  11. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Interesting reasoning.

    I was assuming that Vettel would feel low level of grip, and responded accordingly, taking new tires on, or choosing different approach in corners. Sebastian stated that reason for him going off was misjudging breaking point, locking wheels, and all what followed of it.

    Again, and I am repeating myself, he went off on lap 55 (I think), so he had some tangible feel for that sector what he could or couldn't do. He walked on the edge of a cliff, and tipped over.

    There is next race soon. RBR will be menace on that one. I hope Ferrari will have better times in Hungary, but one never know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  12. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    Hamilton lectures 'undermining' Sky F1 pundits on Instagram!

    Unfortunately I was not possible to watch the broadcast on the Sky F1.
    Comments of experts were really so critical?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  13. vintly

    vintly Mostly bacon Premium Contributor

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    It’s lucky he’s forgiven them, Hammy and God are proper buddies now.
     
  14. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    Not really. Hamilton does make it hard to support him & push my patrotism loyalty, wnere i give my backing to any brit. Because what sky supposed to do its like he can't take an ounce of criticism people he is critical of martin brundle in my opinion best pundit in F1 & hill is the world champ before lewis. They know what they talking about. They have their opinions. Some of time it will disagree

    I support Sheffield United. Doesnt mean i have disagree with manager on few occasions. Criticism is a part of life & if he listens he might pick up something
     
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  15. The Artist.....

    The Artist..... Champion Elect

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    He didn't win the race - that was Alonso - Hamilton finished out of the points in 9th - but that was largely due to a poor drive overall.
     
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  16. I think that if he had a tangible feel for what was happening at that section of the track on lap 55 we have to assume that Vettel is a magician ;) the point is that on that lap the rain was harder than before, and that is a significant change in itself (witness the fact that there was quite some action moments before he went off at other parts of the track), you have to add to that the fact that once the track had become wet, and that happened short before he went off, he lost all grip for the reason that I have highlighted in my previous post. So I'm sure that he was on the edge, and he was on the edge because we know that he's generally seriously good in the wet, the point I'm trying to make is that IMHO he didn't think carefully at what was happening because he couldn't have the feel on how the track would be on that corner and on those cold tyres. Misjudging the braking point is all a bit vague as an explanation, he misjudged it for the conditions of the track at that point in time and for the conditions of his car. Having said that I'm sure that he'll do well in Hungary
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  17. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Thank you for taking time to explain what went (probably) on. Hands on experience beats (my) bland theorizing about second guessing driver after race, but I take your word for it (I really mean it).
     
  18. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    Hamilton had deleted this comment very quickly.
    I think that was only emotion after very hard weekend.
    Let's be lenient... he really achieved a great victory.
    But before that he had not only to go through the difficulties of Saturday,
    but still many hours of waiting stewards decision after the race.
     
  19. some say that some drivers have a special feel for where to find grip in the wet, I don't know, I think that it's more that some drivers have the ability to focus very intensely and that helps. As I said in one of my previous posts the team should have known better, they have a radio to talk to their drivers about these matters
     
  20. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    I wonder if trouble is brewing between the team and Kimi. Kimi told them from GET GO in January that he wants one more championship before he retires. It was not a big surprise then, that he refused to understand pit-wall's (Clear) gentle nudging to let Vettel pass (à la carte - Alonso is faster than you). He was going to do it, but he wanted to make sure we all hear that he was responding to an explicit order! This is always a problem with solution which pleases no one. I was rather surprised that he actually needed any nudging, especially as he must be aware of the fight Vettel v. Hamilton, so why to make it difficult for Vettel? Is it possible that the tabloid story him replacing Leclerc got to him?

    Score suggests that Kimi¨s chances this year and this stage of the season to secure WDC are close to nil in my estimation, but I do understand that he wants to win some races as well.
     
  21. Il_leone

    Il_leone Champion Elect

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    Izumi Funny you should say that given they are thinking of re-signing Kimi I think Vettel needs a kick up the bum because he likes Kimi thinking he is not fast enough and is taking for granted he is No 2 and expects to move out of the way but we saw I think Kimi is almost realising I aint going to get many more chances to prove I can win

    I do think a driver that can threaten Vettel will sharpen his focus .. off course if he wins the drivers title then he can justify the arrangement at Ferrari
     

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