Grand Prix 2011 Singapore Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Getting closer and closer

Every time we say that Vettel won't win, he comes up trumps with a flawless performance and Monza was no different, taking pole, won the race and put a smart move on Alonso which won him the race.

Ferrari have pretty much admitted defeat and are stopping development on their frankly dissapointing 2011 car which so far has only taken one win at the rain affected British Grand Prix which was also the only track where the EBD was banned which was negatively affecting McLaren and Red Bull more than it was Ferrari. It means that Fernando Alonso will have gone 5 years without adding to his 2 world championships which he took at Renault in 2005 and 2006 and he will be more determined than ever to fix that soon. Felipe Massa looks to be just going through the motions and is a shadow of his pre 2009 self.

Jenson Button continued his strong second half of the season with a podium at Monza to further assert himself as the number one driver at McLaren, indeed his performances recently have been putting his team mate in the shade and a series of overtakes in Spa and Monza have showed that he has the mantle to be the leading driver at McLaren.

In contrast Lewis Hamilton has been somewhat troubled recently, after a crash in Spa, a spin in Hungary and just 1 podium in 8 races, he was notably less agressive in Monza, particularly when trying to overtake Schumacher who arguably should have been penalised for agressive defending which other drivers have been penalised for recently.

Apart from over agressive defending Schumacher has been driving a lot better recently and has been up at the front on a more consistent basis and surely he must be close to a podium now? Rosberg has been very unlucky recently, a good strategy in Monza was ruined when he was t-boned by the missile that was Liuzzi who was given a penalty for his spin, he claimed that he was pushed off by Kovalainen but this wasn't true and the stewards took a dim view of him.

Toro Rosso have enjoyed a very strong second half to the year with another double points finish in Monza with Alguesari continuing his Lazarus act from near expulsion to take his season total to 16, 3 ahead of his team mate Buemi who took a solitary point in the sister Toro Rosso, both will be looking to get the upper hand on each other as the season draws to a close and Riccardo in the rear view mirrors when the 2012 contracts get drawn up.

Renault showed a resurgance in Monza with Bruno Senna taking his first F1 points in 9th, he might have finished higher but he was caught up in the first corner crash which forced Petrov to retire after both cars had made it into Q3, but with Singapore being a totally different track, it will be a good test on whether the last upgrades for the car have worked.

Singapore is the first night race in F1 but apart from 2008 which was affected by deliebarate crashing and race fixing, the races have been rather dull with little action throughout the race and many fans criticising the circuit despite decent overtaking figures.

For Galahads superb write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/marina-bay-street-circuit/
 
TBh, i thought most people would of understood that by now, Im Glad Button, and i suppose his team didn't just sit back and accept 2nd though. You never know you ask questions you may just get the awnser your looking for. If Button didn't get held up in traffic then maybe the result would of happened as in Canada. Its not alawys easy to to start "Racing" again when your thinking your cruzing to a victory.

TBH, Button did appear to sit back back (typically) in the early stints and allowed Vettel to build a comfortable lead, notwithstanding the good job Vettel was doing at the time. We know he's good in clean air. In the end he left himself a mountain to climb and judging by his pace in the closing laps, the McLaren clearly had the performance to trouble Redbull. The point about traffic is also moot as Vettel was similarly disadvantaged and Button gained more from the SC's intervention.
It was the usual smash and grab tactics from Jenson and Redbull were not going to fall for it again.
 
I don't think Jenson was sitting back, he was pulling out a gap to those behind him, bit as was said at the start of the race, tyres and fuel were all marginal, so it wasn't a case of banzai every lap.

At the end the gap was closing, but red bull had it covered, indeed sebs fastest lap was not a lot slower than jb, and I get the feeling it could have been beaten if red bull had chosen to do so.

no I think it was the far superior pace of seb in the red bull which was unassailable, as opposed to traffic or any other factor which decided the race.
 
If I'm honest, I think the stewards take into account how much the 'victim' is hindered before deciding whether the man in the wrong gets the penalty. They shouldn't, but we can't really do much.

If I'm honest, I think the stewards take into account how much the 'victim' is hindered before deciding whether the man in the wrong gets the penalty. They shouldn't, but we can't really do much.

Unfortunately the regulations allow them to use discretion when deciding who gets a penalty, and ‘damage’ to the victim is part of this. Seriousness of offence is a factor in all forms of law and F1 should be no different. Schumacher got a reprimand for the incident with Perez but I think he should’ve got a grid drop penalty in the next race as he could’ve got out of the throttle and avoided the crash. A reprimand was no more than a slap on the wrist but it’s worth remembering that you get a 10place grid drop if you accumulate 3 reprimands or more for driving offences. We have to all accept that consistency is always going to be an issue but it doesn’t help when the stewards set a precedent and then turn around and do something different. I think Whiting is part of this problem.
 
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Jenson was quicker this weekend. Please note I said this weekend not forever. I just wish when this happened some of his fans would accept this and not just list off massive reasons as to why its not true and its not Lewis's fault and everyone has it in for him or just pick fault with the drivers that finished in front of him -

There, sorted that for you. Relatively minor detail I know, but one that needs addressing and one of my (and from what i've read, many others') biggest bugbears on this site whenever Hamilton is mentioned. No sense using sweeping statements to accuse others of making sweeping statements, even if having read your original posts this wasn't really what you were doing. Hope that makes sense :)
 
Point taken Mr Senna - apologies for any offence coursed by sweeping statements. I am of course aware that it is some and not all.
 
It is possible to discuss Jenson’s own performance and acknowledge the job he did by coming second without bringing Hamilton into it. This is a point lost so many times on this forum and the reason why we’ll always end up with these merry go round debates with Hamilton’s fans feeling the needed to defend him because of what they see as needless critique.

This whole debate of course started because Ray said Hamilton could’ve potentially improved on the 5thousandth of a second he lost third place by and even achieved second. THERE YOU GO – No mention of Jenson Button here, just Hamilton doing a better job if not for the refuelling issue, although getting second on the grid would’ve also meant beating WEBBER’S time.

It was by no means certain he (Hamilton that is) would’ve gone quicker but seeing as he recorded (I believe) the second fastest time after the first round of runs in Q2, it is definitely a compelling argument.

The point about Jenson sitting back in the initial phases of the race was a personal observation and made no mention of Hamilton but again predetermined views get in the way of a sensible discussion and then the ad hominem route we go. Bitter? Why would I be? Seeing as tyre wear was considered high on the agenda, added to the almost certain appearance of the SC, it should not come as a surprise if Jenson felt the need to play the long game and save his tyres. It would not be the first time. Even if you disagree, this is no doubt a legitimate point for discussion. It is patently obvious those who occasionally accuse Hamilton fans of being over exuberant in defending him are also guilty of latching on any contentious issue to pursue their own agendas. The point about "Jenson having the legs on Hamilton" has no factual basis as they both run two totally individual races but even staunch advocates of Hamilton would admit that occasionally and with all conditions being equal, Jenson has the beating of him. This was clearly NOT one of such occasions and arguing otherwise is stretching the simple truth.
 
The simple truth is that if we're concluding that there is no factual evidence for Jenson being faster than Lewis this weekend then there is dam sure no evidence for Jenson sitting back and 'letting' Vettel go but its alright for you to say that and we call it personel opinion whilst I say Jenson had the legs on Lewis and get shouted down for it.

Justify it with your CAPITAL words 606 STYLE all you like and try and claim no one bought Jenson into this but its funny how its always the same posters telling us Jenson's good performances are not really that good and that he is manipulative etc etc and its funny how these same posters are also the one's that never accept Lewis has done anything wrong.

I shouldn't get angry at it and start posting really because its fairly simple to see but turn it round and sit on the highground all you like. It doesn't change the results.
 
You have to pardon my incompetence because I’m not sure what you mean by "606 STYLE"? Feel free to contest why you think Jenson did not drive conservatively in the early stints and I’ll gladly respond within the spirit of the rules. That’s what this forum is here for. I believe tarnishing everyone with the same brush (as pointed out by SRF above) and suggesting they are bitter because of a seemingly preconceived notion is certainly not what this forum is here for. You don’t have to get angry and if you are not happy with the idea of people questioning your views maybe you must consider an alternative platform to air them really.
 
by 606 style I mean putting a word in capital letters doesn't make it any truer.

As for people questioning my opinions please feel free to skim through the rest of my posting and you'll be happy to see I'm quite open to listen to anyone opinion and will freely admit when I'm wrong. Whats more I do this without talking down or patronising anyone as I do not have a pompus stick stuck up my exhaust pipe. However I do have an issue with blatent bias against certain drivers because you dislike them. If you expect someone to listen to your opinon and consider it then please be unbias when something you don't like has happened.

As for Jenson's 'inconsistant' lap time in the early phase I suggest you go back and take a look at the lap time charts kindly posted by Brogan earlier you'll see that apart from directly after the first pit stop and in the last stint when Vettel was winding down the gap between their lap times were pretty consistant - mainly because Vettel wanted them to be. The other thing you may notice is that Webber and Alonso were losing time to Button during this period - maybe they'd backed off and given up too?

I await you're well worded post which will undoubtedly prove me wrong.
 
Ah yes - the old "who, me?" (places palm on chest & looks slightly taken aback) stance :rolleyes:

A common fallback position for you Quint, I'm afraid.

And the "606 style" is the egregious use of capitals in your posts, which is the blogging equivalent of shouting into someone's face from 2cm away, while poking them repeatedly in the chest with a finger (presumably with spittle spraying from the mouth at the same time). Some people simply cannot contain their rage when they have this happen to them - possibly even more then suffixing yet another lamentably ill-informed opinion with the red rag "FACT" (I'm using this as an illustration, not an accusation btw!).

:goodday:
 
Rasputin: I’m sorry you feel patronised but that wasn’t the intention and frankly we would not be here if you responded with your second paragraph from the start rather than calling people bitter. Lap times are freely available on the FIA's website. Why do you think questioning Jenson’s performance in the early part of the race constitutes blatent bias (sic)?

Edit: ROB, that’s really part of the discussion I’d rather not go down so unless you want to talk about the topic, I’d suggest we leave it here. CAPS were used for nothing more than emphasis but if it helps I’ll edit my post.
 
Q - although that post has been removed now you originally came into this discussion I was having with someone else with a very aggressive stance that basically said "they're all idiots"

combine this with the fact we've had a long debate on the Jenson Button thread where you clearly not accept any evidence at all to suggest Jenson might have a skill in certain condition even down to just to try and make yourself feel better claiming some stats I'd painstakingly worked out(on your request) were wrong because I'd applied the current point scoring system to years the old points scoring system was used to give consistancy with a cross section of results and

then add in that whilst Jenson's early lap times had been questioned by others you're the only person to even suggest this was anything to do with Jenson and you wonder why I think that just maybe your dislike for Mr Button is getting in the way of the facts.

RoB is right the whole "who? me? you're the one calling people names" stance is getting a little old.

Now if you do want a real debate where you're open to maybe considering you aren't the fountain of all knowledge then lets carry on - firstly if Button was 'backing off' why was he still able to out pace Webber and Alonso?
 
I think you have to be careful about bringing up irrelevant old debates which occurred elsewhere to support a point. I'm not sure why the post was deleted but never mind, you live and you learn.

I do genuinely believe that one of the reasons Vettel was pulling out a gap at a rate of an average of one second per lap in the opening stint and not in the closing laps was because Jenson actually got his finger out and put the pressure on. This has nothing to do with bias. You don’t think it is possible Jenson was holding a long term view and didn’t feel the need to chase down Vettel from the outset?

The McLaren was shown to be overall quicker than the Ferrari so that point is moot and Webber had a mixed race like Hamilton and was stuck behind the Ferrari in the early stints to get a true comparison. *Hoping that I’ve steered this topic down the right path.
 
I think you have to be careful about bringing up old debates which occurred elsewhere to support a point. I do genuinely believe that one of the reasons Vettel was pulling out a gap at a rate of an average of one second per lap in the opening stint and not in the closing laps was because Jenson actually got his finger out and put the pressure on. This has nothing to do with bias. You don’t think it is possible Jenson was holding a long term view and didn’t feel the need to chase down Vettel from the outset?

Quintessentially - I'd suggest you go back and listen to JB's interviews.... He was very clear that he was only **allowed** to push in the last 12 laps - since fuel and tyres were so critical! McLaren's tactics for the race were blatantly based on the idea that there was going to be a safety car, which would allow them to push later in the race!
 
I'm not trying to support any point Q - I'm not trying to make a point. Just don't act all innocent like 'me? say something bad about Jenson becuase I don't like him? What made you jump to that conclusion?' when we've all been posting on this site for a while and know what your stance is. It would be like me trying to argue that I have no view on whether Nico Rosberg will be a race winner one day or not - just not true.

Back to the debate. I think Vettel pulled out the gap to Button that quick for the very same reason that Button closed him down later on - Vettel is that quick and he's quite prepared to push the car to the limit to pull out a big gap because he knows any excess fuel he burns or tyres he wrecks can be much easier managed with a massive lead - like he has all season. The point you were trying to make was that if Button had attacked in the early stages then the Mclaren had the performance to beat the Red Bull and it was a tactical error on Buttons part which cost him a chance at the race which I have to disagree with completly. Vettel had the pace of Jenson and when Jenson was catching him he knew exactly what was going on and knew not to worry - he was pacing his car to the line after exerting it early up to build his gap as he's done with nearly every victory he's taken - the only time this went wrong was Canada.

Yes Jenson could have pushed like a crazy person when he saw Seb going away but he'd have either wrecked his tyres, hit the wall or collided with someone and where would have left him? (Other than with a 30 min slot on the BBC Forum!)
 
Quintessentially - I'd suggest you go back and listen to JB's interviews.... He was very clear that he was only **allowed** to push in the last 12 laps - since fuel and tyres were so critical! McLaren's tactics for the race were blatantly based on the idea that there was going to be a safety car, which would allow them to push later in the race!

Which is what I am suggesting. Jenson effectively 'sat back' in the hope that the race will come back back to him and even if this was the sensible view at the time I thought Vettel was allowed to pull too big a gap (12seconds by lap 11 alone), and coupled with having to navigate backmarkers to catch him, Jenson left himself a mountain to climb.
 
Yes Jenson could have pushed like a crazy person when he saw Seb going away but he'd have either wrecked his tyres, hit the wall or collided with someone and where would have left him? (Other than with a 30 min slot on the BBC Forum!)

And if he'd done that, then he'd have not been able to push at the end due to lack of fuel, and Vettel would have won at a canter...
 
Which is what I am suggesting. Jenson effectively 'sat back' in the hope that the race will come back back to him and even if this was the sensible view at the time I thought Vettel was allowed to pull too big a gap (12seconds by lap 11 alone), and coupled with having to navigate backmarkers to catch him, Jenson left himself a mountain to climb.

The key word though in his interview was **allowed**... It suggests that the team kept telling him to take it easy - i.e. not an individual's decision!
 
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