Current Alfa Romeo Racing (formerly Sauber)

Sauber

FIA Entry: Sauber F1 Team
Car 16: Kamui Kobayashi
Car 17: Sergio Perez
Engine: Ferrari V8
Team Principal: Peter Sauber
Technical Director: James Key
Race Engineer Car 16: Francesco Nenci
Race Engineer Car 17:Marco Schupbach

Stats as of end 2010

First Entered 1993
Races Entered 296
Race Wins 1
Pole Positions 1
Fastest Laps 2
Driver World Championships 0
Constructor World Championships 0

The Beginning

Following success in sports car racing Peter Sauber, in collaboration with Mercedes Benz, moved into Formula 1 in 1993. With Ilmor engines Sauber entered the C12 car (the C prefix for Sauber cars coming from Peter Sauber’s wife Christine) driven by Mercedes sports car drivers JJ Lehto and Karl Wendlinger. Lehto finished a creditable 5th in their first race and the cars proved fast but unreliable. When the cars finished they often picked up points with Lehto managing 4th in San Marino and Wendlinger the same placing in Italy.

In 1994 the team became officially Sauber Mercedes as the Ilmor engines were rebadged as Mercedes units. Heinz Harald Frentzen replaced Lehto and the team showed similar pace to the previous season with a number of minor points placings. Wendlinger was replaced, following an accident at Monaco, firstly by Andrea de Cesaris and later in the season by Lehto. Wendlinger’s accident, following closely after the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger at San Marino, resulted in changes to the design of the cockpit on F1 cars to provide greater head protection in the event of an accident.

Red Bull & Ford

1995 saw Mercedes leave Sauber to supply engines to McLaren. Now armed with Red Bull sponsorship, Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz having bought a stake in the Sauber team, Sauber sourced Ford factory engines. Wendlinger hadn’t recovered well and was replaced early in the season by Jean Christophe Bouillon. Sauber amassed 18 points for the season with Frentzen taking a podium for 3rd in Belgium.

Jonny Herbert partnered Frentzen for 1996 and managed a highest of 3rd at Monaco, with Frentzen 4th, but the team ended the season on their lowest points tally since entering Formula 1 with 11 points

Ferrari Customer

From 1997 to 2005 Sauber used customer Ferrari engines and run under the name of title sponsor Petronas. The tie in with Ferrari extended beyond the supply of engines as Ferrari also provided the Swiss team with technical support.

Jonny Herbert continued with Sauber for 1997 and ’98 and was partnered in ’98 by veteran Jean Alesi. Herbert managed a podiums at Hungary in ’97 and Alesi in Belgium in ’98 but generally Sauber’s performance was fairly ordinary. In 2001 Sauber hired young Finnish driver Kimi Raikkonen amidst protest form other teams due to his lack of experience. Raikkonen scored a point on his debut with teammate Nick Heidfeld 4th in the same race. Raikkonen’s appointment also triggered the sale of Red Bull’s stake in Sauber to Credit Suisse as the Austrian drinks company wanted the seat given to Enrique Bernoldi.

Peter Sauber continued to give drives to promising youngsters with Felipe Massa racing for him in 2004 & 2005 and Robert Kubica replacing Jacques Villeneuve in 2006.

BMW Sauber

For 2006 BMW took a controlling interest in the Sauber team and BMW units replaced Ferrari engines. BMW “works” driver Nick Heidfeld returned to Sauber from Williams and the team finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship behind Ferrari (following the exclusion of the McLaren team). Heidfeld scored points in 14 of the 17 races that season. 2007 also saw the first F1 drive for Sebastien Vettel who substituted for Robert Kubica at the race in Indianapolis following the Pole’s crash in Canada.

2008 saw Sauber take their first Grand Prix win with Kubica victorious in Canada and Heidfeld coming home 2nd. The team scored numerous podiums and claimed 3rd spot in the Constructors Championship.

2009 was a disappointing season following the highs of 2008 as Sauber struggled with changes to design regulations. Heidfeld and Kubica both managed a 2nd place each but the team dropped to 6th in the Constructors Championship. By the end of the season BMW decided to pull out of the sport.

Back to Ferrari

Following BMW’s withdrawal Peter Sauber took back control of his team. Re-equipped with Ferrari engines Sauber signed promising young Japanese driver Kamui Kobayshi alongside returning veteran Pedro de la Rosa. Early season reliability problems blighted the team but by the end of the season, and the replacement of de la Rosa with Nick Heidfeld, Sauber began to score points on a regular basis. Kobayshi managed a highest finish of 6th in Britain and the team ended 8th in the Constructors Championship.

2011

Kobayashi stays with Sauber for 2011 alongside Sergio Perez who brings with him some much-needed sponsorship from Mexican Telecoms company Telmex. The C30 chassis continues with a Ferrari engine.
 
With Racing Point looking likely to be Merc B-team that technically means we're down to 7 teams on the grid. I'm sure Renault will follow suit at somepoint as well. That will leave Haas, McLaren and Williams as the only independents. Both the last two are struggling and Haas are only doing alright because they are in bed with Ferrari.
 
With Racing Point looking likely to be Merc B-team that technically means we're down to 7 teams on the grid. I'm sure Renault will follow suit at somepoint as well. That will leave Haas, McLaren and Williams as the only independents. Both the last two are struggling and Haas are only doing alright because they are in bed with Ferrari.
May I offer a different interpretation why Haas is performing well? Here it goes:
1. They are power-plant customer of Ferrari. (Undisputed fact.)
2. Being in bed with Ferrari is one way to put it, but then there are many more of such arrangements in current F1. Depth and complexities of such relationships is not public, thus open often to subjective interpretations. (Again, undisputed fact.)

Perhaps Haas + Ferrari exemplifies functional relationship between supplier and customer, thus negating rather loud arguments (excuses) that customers can never win a race, that is, implying that it is an engine which is holding them back. Force India is another example of such good relationship between supplier and customer. Those two cases suggest, that Williams and McLaren have to perhaps dig deep and look more inwardly in search of "better me". It is my opinion if Haas or Force India aren't winning races, core reasons for it is something else than the engine.
 
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You are missing the point Izumi - yes the Haas is doing well because of its relationship with Ferrari but if they ever get anywhere near beating Ferrari that relationship will end very quickly.

We had a very competitive Force India team last season......but Ocon still had to jump on the brakes and get out of Hamilton's way.

If all the other teams on the grid are owned or propped up by the top 4 teams it means only the top 4 teams can win ever - I only include Renault in this out of courtesy. That's called a Monopoly not a sport.
 
Ocon would not have needed to stamp on the brakes and get out of Hamilton's way if he was quicker than Hamilton, but he wasn't so he was obliged to, we haven't yet reached the point where this has been the case with the engine manufacturers except for Red Bull and Renault where Renault tends to get out of a Red Bull's way or did:whistle:
 
Dartman ok let's get into this one shall we. Ocon did stamp on the brakes and get out of Hamiltons way at Monoco and Hamilton was quicker it's very true. Of course you are forgetting that Hamilton had made a pitstop so would be quicker....and that Ocon had been told in pit lane prior that Merc were going to be on a startegy where Hamilton would be behind him and that it would only work if he let him go past - so he was ordered to do so. Basically Merc fixed an entire race result by having power over another team.

Also I'm very interested to hear you say that Ocon was obliged to get out of Hamilton's way because he wasn't quicker than him. As he was not his team mate I'm guessing you are if the belief that if a car behind you is quicker that you must let him past? I remind you this was Monaco and there is no way Hamilton would have got by without assistance.
 
So Ferrari have two B teams, Haas and Alfa Romeo. Mercedes have Racing point, Red Bull obviously has Toro Rosso. Renault are no longer tied to Red Bull but McLaren are using their engines so does that make them the Renault B Team? Also aren't Williams supplied by Mercedes too, so are they not a Mercedes B team as a result? In which case we don't have any independent teams as such as they're all connected to one another by some form or another.

Or is there a lot more to these tie ups than just engines/gear boxes etc. that I'm missing?

gethinceri I mentioned Alfa Romeo ;)
 
McLaren (like Red Bull before them) don't have the technical ties ups with Renault like Alfa do with Ferrari (and the others do) so you could probably call then independent. Although you only have to look at what happened to Torro Rosso at the end of 2017 to see what Renault do to their engine customers when they are in close competition in the constructors championship with them.
 
Alfa Romeo (Fiat) and Ferrari are two separate business entities for some time now. I would be hesitant to claim that beyond supply of power plant they have some additional and unique influence over Swiss team. Most intertwined teams on the grid seems to be just RB boys.
 
If you honestly believe that (and your not just saying it for the sake of an argument) the I think you're being very naive. The whole team is clearly being set up as a Ferrari B-team right through the driver line up to the gearbox and design. They are even openly saying it in the press.
 
If you honestly believe that (and your not just saying it for the sake of an argument) the I think you're being very naive. The whole team is clearly being set up as a Ferrari B-team right through the driver line up to the gearbox and design. They are even openly saying it in the press.
I think we can just speculate RL. I also believe they are 2 entities, as Izumi above state. Vastly different interest
 
Ok. I believe that Red Bull and Torro Rosso are two separate entities too. Looking forward to that fight between Albon and Verstappen this season.
 
Ok. I believe that Red Bull and Torro Rosso are two separate entities too. Looking forward to that fight between Albon and Verstappen this season.
RB - TR = the same owner, one purse.
Ferrari - Fiat = two owners, and not necessarily the same business agenda, two different purses. Alfa Romeo label in F1 was brainchild of SM when he still was engaged in both businesses.
 
RB - TR = the same owner, one purse.
Ferrari - Fiat = two owners, and not necessarily the same business agenda, two different purses. Alfa Romeo label in F1 was brainchild of SM when he still was engaged in both businesses.
+1
Add to that the fact that TR drivers are specifically groomed as potential RBR drivers. History shows a very clear and distinct pattern. And we not talking managers here like Wolf, who will try and fit his drivers into ANY TEAM available
 
Formula 1: Mercedes 'considering' B-team like Ferrari/Alfa Romeo - Toto Wolff

Does Haas worry about Ferrari’s B team?

https://www.quora.com/Will-Alfa-Rom...-Ferraris-B-team-like-Red-Bull-and-Toro-Rosso

Awful lot of denial coming out from the Alfa boss but no one really believing them and most think it's a done thing.

As for ownership - Go back through companies house they are both ulitmately owned by same company.

I accept your position (and lovely to see you guys sticking up for each other but calm your boots no one is attacking anyone over here it ain't the wild west) and I guess we'll see how it pans out. I don't think for a second we'll ever see anyone driving that Alfa who is not a Ferrari academy driver or a Ferrari old boy.

But you boys seems pretty sure on it so maybe I'm wrong.
 
You read quora too..great stuff

Haas and Alfa both state they are NOT Ferrari's B-team. For teams wanting their independence that much says something. TR on the other hand... Practically told what and how to do, even as a Guinea pig in certain circumstances... Vettel, Alfonso, Kimi etc, all coming from rival teams... Name one driver that's straight from a rival team to RBR

As I said.... Alfa and Haas... Ferrar's B-team.... pure speculation, especially from a guy like Wolff
 
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